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Author Topic: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)  (Read 1849 times)

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Offline Gamefreak202020

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2016, 07:05:43 AM »

The King of Sorrow did not summon Klonoa. He just believes that he did.

I'll take this with a grain of salt when the 'DreamVoice' at the start of the game pleading him to help from the place between worlds and what made him 'fall' into the Sea of Tears was that of the King of Sorrow's. The game outright tells you that voice belonged to KoS and that he was the one calling to help in the cutscene before the fight with KoS. It would be different if the owner of the 'DreamVoice' was unknown, but even Lolo heard it at the last level before KoS and said she didn't know anything about it, confirming that the DreamVoice is not Lolo. It's nice to have theories like that, and I do love me some Lolo, but it's kinda hard to make a theory that counteracts facts stated in the game itself.


On the part of Klonoa never leaved as soon as the Big Bad is defeated, didn't he do just that in Empire of Dreams? He beats Bagoo, and then pisses off to a green landscape where he gets the invite from Garlen. Also, fair enough if you want to say EoD isn't canon so much due to spin-off so different rules apply.

Offline Mobotropolis

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2016, 07:33:31 AM »
The Dream Voice is not Lolo's, but that does not mean that the Dream Voice summoned Klonoa.

There's a very good reason why dreamers cannot simply " summon " the Dream Traveler. Specifically, that everyone would do it whenever they were the least bit inconvenienced and then Klonoa wouldn't know where to go. On the opposite end of things if people could summon the Dream Traveler at will why couldn't someone else just make a counter-spell and banish him before he stops their plans?

It doesn't work that way.

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Also, fair enough if you want to say EoD isn't canon so much due to spin-off so different rules apply.


Empire of Dreams is the most straightforward version. Julius explains exactly what happened.

I'm sorry for being so cryptic. I'm more concerned about spoiling my story than explaining my theory. :embarassed:

Offline Artsy

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2016, 10:35:15 AM »
Empire of Dreams is the most straightforward version. Julius explains exactly what happened.

Even though EoD seems straightforward, I always thought that Jillius was mistaken? Like, he had passed out. He could have easily been out long enough for Klonoa to leave to go get help, or to be taken (summoned) to the Dream Champ Tournament  (in DCT he gets the summons as quickly as after beating the final boss). When he saw that Klonoa was gone he most likely assumed it was a dream...

But let's back this up and solidify this, shall we? Because plain old observation just isn't enough for me. Remember that Jillius is diagnosed with insomnia, as explained in the first cutscene in the game. Firstly, he would either have to have developed insomnia very, very recently, or his insomnia would have to allow him at least a few hours of sleep every night. This is because humans can only survive around 3 weeks without any sleep at all before death sets in, and considering these characters are anthropomorphic, I don't see a problem with using humans as an example. Also because there are no specific studies on the lack of sleep for foxes or cats, which seem to be the two species people peg Jillius into (I like to think he's a hybrid, anyway).

In addition, Jillius's main complaint is that he is unable to dream. So, even if we allowed him a few hours sleep every night to keep the condition from being immediately fatal, he would still meet the description of being unable to dream, because he would be missing his REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep, or, the point in sleep when we dream. REM sleep occurs for 1-2 hours every night after the person sleeping has already slept for a certain amount of hours (I believe it's 5 or 6), which is why everyone pushes the idea of sleeping 8 hours. If Jillius only slept a couple of hours, REM cycles would not be happening in his brain every night. As a result, he would suffer loss of memory, have an inability to focus, be more or less unaware of his surroundings, and even develop psychosis that would get more and more severe the less he sleeps. This is the reason why he's so easily manipulated by Bagoo, and also why he's so irritable up until his boss fight.

So, with the notion that Jillius rarely if ever experiences REM sleep, it's now arguable on whether he is a reliable source of information to the audience, as his mind is, for lack of a better word, pretty messed up. If he had remained unconscious for long enough to experience his first REM cycle in a long time, coupled with the side affects of insomnia as explained above, he could have easily mistaken the events that just played out before him as a dream. REM sleep is not just responsible for dreams, but also responsible for sorting and keeping memories in place, so it's very, very likely that Jillius dreamt about Klonoa while unconscious. When he woke up and Klonoa was gone, he may have assumed that literally everything up to that point was a dream. And, because one good night's sleep can't cure someone of psychosis (though it can drastically improve one's mood, so his personality change is still realistic) his observations and beliefs still can't be accepted as complete fact within the game's lore.

I love Jillius, but I'm not buying what he says  :tired:

Offline mnstrmthd

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2016, 12:29:15 PM »
Wait, when did this become about Jilius? I thought we were talking about Sorrow.

Anyway I really don't have a lot of mental energy right now, but I want to try and bring some things up. Sorry if it's kinda disjointed and confusing, it's hard to think straight lately. I do agree with a lot of what Vokadae and AlphaRed said, too.

As far as Sorrow goes, he was desperate and wasn't thinking rationally, and while, had he succeeded, he may have regretted his methods, I don't think what he did was "idiotic". He was spiteful and bitter over being branded as an evil thing, because no one wants to be deal with the emotion he represented. And he's a literal ball of sadness, so he would obsess on the negative feelings of that situation for however long he was holed away. Of course he would resent Lunatea and want to take out his feelings on it, wouldn't you?

Not to mention we have no idea what the circumstances of his/his kingdom's disappearance were. There's nothing at all saying that he didn't try to reason with The High Priestess, or anyone else in Lunatea before resorting to drastic measures. There is zero evidence either way of that, we just don't have the information to claim that as a fact. He could very well have tried for a long time. Or maybe he was too spiteful to ask these people who shunned him to take him back. I wouldn't say that would be out of character, either.

And regardless of any of that, he was bitter and miserable, and acting purely on negative emotions without any regard to consequences. If he wanted revenge on Lunatea, I don't think he would give a damn about whether they saw him as evil at that point, since they already did. If it's been ingrained in their religion for possibly thousands of years that this bell is evil, and they've all forgotten it was even another kingdom and not just an Evil Bell, I don't think they would be swayed that easily. It could even be a risk to try and convince them as Baguji, if he loses his respected status for spouting such "crazy ideas". It's far smarter to play into the world's already established, if unfounded, fears and legends to trick them into getting his kingdom revived, imo. Aside from that, self-destructive thinking like giving in and calling himself evil isn't exactly out of character for someone as depressed and unstable as him, if he was being genuine and not just tricking everyone.

And anyway in the end, he did not get killed? At least not really. The sorrow we met died, but in a way he seemed content with, and he was reincarnated. Happy end.
He was not "insane and needed to be put down". He was lashing out at Klonoa with who knows how many years of pent up negativity. When he was defeated he was burned out on those emotions, and again asked for help like he had been the entire game. He's emotionally volatile, not insane in the slightest.
I think if you had spent thousands of years living in misery that slowly bubbled up into spite and bitterness, you would lash out, too.
King of Sorrow is a good and relatable antagonist who made some questionable choices, but he is not an idiot or insane.

Sorry if this was really just, indecipherable, I'm not in a good place to write essays lately. I tried lol

Offline Gamefreak202020

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2016, 05:13:25 PM »
The Dream Voice is not Lolo's, but that does not mean that the Dream Voice summoned Klonoa.

There's a very good reason why dreamers cannot simply " summon " the Dream Traveler. Specifically, that everyone would do it whenever they were the least bit inconvenienced and then Klonoa wouldn't know where to go. On the opposite end of things if people could summon the Dream Traveler at will why couldn't someone else just make a counter-spell and banish him before he stops their plans?

But didn't the Dream Voice at the start of the game cause him to drift into Lunatea in the first place? Also, I don't think outside forces can block or banish him. Ghadius complained about Klonoa as a 'Strange Dream' in that his efforts to reach him with nightmares didn't work and had to be eliminated personally.

Wait, when did this become about Jilius? I thought we were talking about Sorrow.

Anyway I really don't have a lot of mental energy right now, but I want to try and bring some things up. Sorry if it's kinda disjointed and confusing, it's hard to think straight lately. I do agree with a lot of what Vokadae and AlphaRed said, too.

As far as Sorrow goes, he was desperate and wasn't thinking rationally, and while, had he succeeded, he may have regretted his methods, I don't think what he did was "idiotic". He was spiteful and bitter over being branded as an evil thing, because no one wants to be deal with the emotion he represented. And he's a literal ball of sadness, so he would obsess on the negative feelings of that situation for however long he was holed away. Of course he would resent Lunatea and want to take out his feelings on it, wouldn't you?

Not to mention we have no idea what the circumstances of his/his kingdom's disappearance were. There's nothing at all saying that he didn't try to reason with The High Priestess, or anyone else in Lunatea before resorting to drastic measures. There is zero evidence either way of that, we just don't have the information to claim that as a fact. He could very well have tried for a long time. Or maybe he was too spiteful to ask these people who shunned him to take him back. I wouldn't say that would be out of character, either.

And regardless of any of that, he was bitter and miserable, and acting purely on negative emotions without any regard to consequences. If he wanted revenge on Lunatea, I don't think he would give a damn about whether they saw him as evil at that point, since they already did. If it's been ingrained in their religion for possibly thousands of years that this bell is evil, and they've all forgotten it was even another kingdom and not just an Evil Bell, I don't think they would be swayed that easily. It could even be a risk to try and convince them as Baguji, if he loses his respected status for spouting such "crazy ideas". It's far smarter to play into the world's already established, if unfounded, fears and legends to trick them into getting his kingdom revived, imo. Aside from that, self-destructive thinking like giving in and calling himself evil isn't exactly out of character for someone as depressed and unstable as him, if he was being genuine and not just tricking everyone.

And anyway in the end, he did not get killed? At least not really. The sorrow we met died, but in a way he seemed content with, and he was reincarnated. Happy end.
He was not "insane and needed to be put down". He was lashing out at Klonoa with who knows how many years of pent up negativity. When he was defeated he was burned out on those emotions, and again asked for help like he had been the entire game. He's emotionally volatile, not insane in the slightest.
I think if you had spent thousands of years living in misery that slowly bubbled up into spite and bitterness, you would lash out, too.
King of Sorrow is a good and relatable antagonist who made some questionable choices, but he is not an idiot or insane.

Sorry if this was really just, indecipherable, I'm not in a good place to write essays lately. I tried lol


I can see what you're getting at, there is no evidence he did or didn't try and the first we heard about the Fifth Bell was from Baguji so I figured he was the one who started the 'Fifth Bell is Evil' thing, but again, there is lack of facts to see if he started that or the Priestess always thought that and he just went with it.

As for the 'needing to be put down' thing, that's because we fight him as a final boss because he was going drown the whole world in Sorrow. Not just remind people it exists, but make it the only emotion in the world. He at first wanted to restore the harmony in Lunatea but at the end snapped and decided to destroy it himself with sorrow outright. That's what I meant by 'going insane', though I guess 'giving into revenge' would be a better way to describe it.

Also, after finishing another playthrough of it last night, I do need to give the King more credit for his plan, because he had backups in place to make sure he won regardless.

After Volk he somehow possessed/controlled Leorina into his new avatar/pawn, and then used her to drain the Sea of Tears/open the path to the Kingdom of Sorrow. And if Leorina failed as a puppet, he still could manipulate Klonoa and Lolo as Baguji to get the desired result. Of course Leorina winning was his Plan A by that point, but I think he only saw that as a better plan after the updates from Lolo about the journey, and his 'Plan B' as Baguji was his default plan the whole time. He just took up Speed Chess halfway through the game to make sure he ended in a winning place.

Offline mnstrmthd

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2016, 07:04:40 PM »
Yo I just woke up from a nap this is all probably gonna be jumbled garbage  :bad_straight_face:

I can see what you're getting at, there is no evidence he did or didn't try and the first we heard about the Fifth Bell was from Baguji so I figured he was the one who started the 'Fifth Bell is Evil' thing, but again, there is lack of facts to see if he started that or the Priestess always thought that and he just went with it.
To be totally fair, there isn't evidence that he DID try either, so I'm definitely not saying anything as if it's fact. It's really just as possible that as soon as they shunned him, he isolated himself (which Leorina implies, I think) and just marinated in bitterness about it until things came to a head. Again super irrational, but kind of understandable in it's own way. He was more the self-pitying shutting-himself-away type, wasn't he?
That doesn't really sway either way on whether reasoning with them would've worked anyway, though, so I think that part of my point would still work in this case? Or maybe just, it was his internal reasoning that no one would listen, which, to be fair, isn't unbelievable either.

As for the 'needing to be put down' thing, that's because we fight him as a final boss because he was going drown the whole world in Sorrow. Not just remind people it exists, but make it the only emotion in the world. He at first wanted to restore the harmony in Lunatea but at the end snapped and decided to destroy it himself with sorrow outright. That's what I meant by 'going insane', though I guess 'giving into revenge' would be a better way to describe it.
That makes a little more sense, I think. I'll admit your original wording bothered me a bit. It's possible he was genuinely giving in to revenge, but I personally still think it was a desperate emotional outburst. One of those things where you say or wish for things you don't mean when you're upset, like for everyone to disappear, for the world to just end, etc. You don't mean those things, but you can't help but curse everything in the moment. The fact that he calmed down after his fight and again begged for help is what makes me think that he didn't 100% intend to follow through on destroying the world. It was a desperate little tantrum that he'd probably been holding in with no one to direct it at for years.
Again, totally possible he really would've done it, but I just like this possibility more from a character-writing standpoint  ;)

Also, after finishing another playthrough of it last night, I do need to give the King more credit for his plan, because he had backups in place to make sure he won regardless.

After Volk he somehow possessed/controlled Leorina into his new avatar/pawn, and then used her to drain the Sea of Tears/open the path to the Kingdom of Sorrow. And if Leorina failed as a puppet, he still could manipulate Klonoa and Lolo as Baguji to get the desired result. Of course Leorina winning was his Plan A by that point, but I think he only saw that as a better plan after the updates from Lolo about the journey, and his 'Plan B' as Baguji was his default plan the whole time. He just took up Speed Chess halfway through the game to make sure he ended in a winning place.
I never really thought about his plan in too much detail but yeah, I do think he thought it out pretty well. Assuming the "bell is evil" stuff was already in place when he assumed the role of Baguji, he played them all super hard and had a pretty seamless Plan B.
Assuming that evil connotation wasn't already a thing, it was definitely a way to get "hero" types fired up real damn quick and do what he wanted without question. I think people tend to ask less questions when it's "fight the evil" and not "revive the ancient kingdom that no one remembers".
Either way, guy wasn't just floundering around despite his overemotional, irrational motive. I think he only floundered at the end because of his lack of conviction to actually destroy Lunatea.

*CLAPS*  and that's the end of my novella about Feelings, everybody