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Author Topic: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)  (Read 2782 times)

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Offline Gamefreak202020

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The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« on: July 25, 2016, 11:01:42 PM »
In order to avoid spoilers I named King of Sorrow as 'Final Boss' in the Subject text.

ANYWAYS, I'm now gonna rant about how the King of Sorrow (will be shorten to KoS for the sake of my sanity during this rant) was a idiot and how the plot of Lunatea's Veil didn't even NEED to happen.

The King of Sorrow is a complete idiot

The main driving antagonistic force in Klonoa 2 is the fabled 'Fifth Bell' which spurs not only our heroes into action, but also Leorina in her bid to prove the High Priestess wrong. However, they go about doing all this because the 'wise sage Baguji' told everyone that the Fifth Bell was evil and needed to be countered.

Over the course of the game, we find out the Fifth Bell isn't evil and is in fact the Bell of Sorrow, belonging to the kingdom that Lunatea abandoned. And we learn that the sage Baguji was actually the King of Sorrow all along. KoS hatched this plan to save the world because Lunatea was not in harmony and growing worse by the minute BECAUSE they decided to close the world off from his kingdom. But he went the completely wrong way to do it, and he ended getting killed because of it.

As Baguji, I can guess he was well respected by the Priestesses at least, because Lolo goes to him for advice, and I think High Priestess likes Baguji too, or she would have said something to Lolo about not going back to see him. If that is the case, KoS as Baguji could have simply gone to the High Priestess and explain to her the truth about the Fifth Bell, and how it's not evil and not something to be shunned. I'm sure if she heard the truth about the Kingdom of Sorrow and how Lunatea was ignoring it was actually hurting the world, she would round up the other priestesses and work with the KoS to find a way to bring the Kingdom back into the world peacefully and avoid calamity. the ONLY REASON they all thought the Fifth Bell was evil and needed to be stopped is because THE KING HIMSELF SPREAD THAT LIE. He was the one who told them that the Fifth Bell was the cause of the surge of evil and monsters, when in reality, it was due to Lunatea's growing disharmony.

BECAUSE of this lie, Klonoa had to intervene into this world and sort this out himself. And by the time he actually did reach the Kingdom of Sorrow, it was too late and the KoS went insane and did truly become a threat to the world and needed to be put down.

Some of you might say that Klonoa had to intervene regardless because they needed the Dream Traveler's Ring to be order to ring the Fifth Bell. However, the Priestesses have been able to ring the Kingdom Bells by themselves before, and I'm sure at least the High Priestess herself could have rang the Fifth Bell herself if the KoS escorted her to the Kingdom of Sorrow.

Offline Artsy

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2016, 12:35:23 AM »
I'm glad you got that all out of your system, it's always refreshing to see someone analyzing games, even if it's in the form of a rant  :smile2:

Though I'm sure the King of Sorrow is self loathing enough to refer to himself and his own element as "evil" despite the fact that he knows he's needed (kind of like those edgy kids who everyone picks on, and even though they're made at everyone they'll still refer to themselves as the bad guy because edge lol)

Jokes aside... i.... really could have sworn that Leorina was the one disguised as Baguji, not the King of Sorrow...? Although I could be mistaken.... I really don't play this game much...

Offline AlphaRed9X

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2016, 03:32:32 AM »
I kinda see what you're getting at, even if it is a bit harsh. There are a few things I think you have to consider though, and I'll try to explain my view on them to the best of my ability

As Baguji, I can guess he was well respected by the Priestesses at least, because Lolo goes to him for advice, and I think High Priestess likes Baguji too, or she would have said something to Lolo about not going back to see him. If that is the case, KoS as Baguji could have simply gone to the High Priestess and explain to her the truth about the Fifth Bell, and how it's not evil and not something to be shunned.
It seems like a reasonable conclusion, but remember that KoS and the rest of his Kingdom were abandoned by the entire world because none of them wanted to acknowledge sadness or Sorrow. In real life, the main reason anyone would refuse to acknowledge something, is if they truly believed it was an inherently bad/harmful thing.
Yes, maybe KoS could explain the truth to the High Priestess, and it's possible that she'd be willing to lend a hand; but good luck trying to convince the rest of the world...

However, the Priestesses have been able to ring the Kingdom Bells by themselves before, and I'm sure at least the High Priestess herself could have rang the Fifth Bell herself if the KoS escorted her to the Kingdom of Sorrow.
It's actually not as simple as you think. KoS can't simply escort the High Priestess to his Kingdom because it is hidden beneath the Sea of Tears. The only way to get there is through Ishra's Ark, which needed the power of all the elements to fully open the path. This goes back to my point about convincing the truth to the rest of the world, as they wouldn't consider allowing their element to be used for something they wanted to cast aside.

the ONLY REASON they all thought the Fifth Bell was evil and needed to be stopped is because THE KING HIMSELF SPREAD THAT LIE. He was the one who told them that the Fifth Bell was the cause of the surge of evil and monsters, when in reality, it was due to Lunatea's growing disharmony.
You have to understand that KoS has been alone and forgotten, and considering no one even knew what the fifth bell belonged to, it's probably been a really long time. It's very likely that because of this, he became desperate, and felt that making himself into a threat was the best way to grab everyone's attention. It might not be the best way to go about things, and it certainly doesn't make his actions justified, but it's hard to think straight when you're desperate for help and feel like the entire world is against you...

And that's about all I have on the matter. I do hope my view helps to shed some light on the topic... :)
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Offline Gamefreak202020

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2016, 07:15:31 AM »
Jokes aside... i.... really could have sworn that Leorina was the one disguised as Baguji, not the King of Sorrow...? Although I could be mistaken.... I really don't play this game much...

Leorina only did it that one time to steal the Elements, and even said afterwards that she wasn't Baguji the entire time, he was off away doing something at the time and she just decided to take advantage of it. In the cutscene before you fight KoS you learn he was Baguji.

Quote from: AlphaRed9X
It seems like a reasonable conclusion, but remember that KoS and the rest of his Kingdom were abandoned by the entire world because none of them wanted to acknowledge sadness or Sorrow. In real life, the main reason anyone would refuse to acknowledge something, is if they truly believed it was an inherently bad/harmful thing.
Yes, maybe KoS could explain the truth to the High Priestess, and it's possible that she'd be willing to lend a hand; but good luck trying to convince the rest of the world...

Well, at least he'd have the support of 1 out of 4 kingdoms, and could work off of that to get the ball rolling and get the other kingdoms to at least listen due to having a power figure of one of the 4 main kingdoms talking. If that didn't actually work, then yeah, then go with the 'I'm gonna be evil!' plan, but he shouldn't have jumped to it by default the way he did.

Quote from: AlphaRed9X
It's actually not as simple as you think. KoS can't simply escort the High Priestess to his Kingdom because it is hidden beneath the Sea of Tears. The only way to get there is through Ishra's Ark, which needed the power of all the elements to fully open the path. This goes back to my point about convincing the truth to the rest of the world, as they wouldn't consider allowing their element to be used for something they wanted to cast aside.

Makes sense, but then how could KoS himself make it to the mainland of Lunatea and start his plan if there was no other way from Lunatea to his kingdom? If only he could make it out as a astral projection ala Baguji, then that makes more sense, but if he did have the High Priestess on his side, he could have also told her about the Ark and how we need to get it up and running again, and she could have thrown enough Priestesses at it until it worked again. Considering the Ark was meant to be used by Lunateans themsleves, I think they should be able to get it working, abiet a bit longer then it took Klonoa.

Joke time! How many Priestesses does it take to start up a Flying Ark?

Quote from: AlphaRed9X
You have to understand that KoS has been alone and forgotten, and considering no one even knew what the fifth bell belonged to, it's probably been a really long time. It's very likely that because of this, he became desperate, and felt that making himself into a threat was the best way to grab everyone's attention. It might not be the best way to go about things, and it certainly doesn't make his actions justified, but it's hard to think straight when you're desperate for help and feel like the entire world is against you...

Fair enough, I would have at least liked to see him try a more reasonable route before saying 'Forget this crap' and decided to make himself a villain/martyr. I'm reminded of another Namco villain from Tales of Phantasia, Dhaos. He wanted to stop the humans from using MagicTek because it would drain the world's Mana Tree and doom the planet to die/decline. He actually did do the reasonable thing first and went to the humans and explained the situation. They laughed him off and kicked his butt out of town, and the that's when he resorted to drastic measures.

Maybe Klonoa was indeed needed to resolve all of this even if KoS did play his cards right, but maybe then he could have been an ally during the journey instead of the final boss alongside the High Priestess as you try to talk some sense into the other kingdoms with Leorina still being a threat due to her ego trip issues.


Offline Mobotropolis

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2016, 07:26:22 AM »
The Way I Interpreted the Situation:

Klonoa was not called to Lunatea to help the King/Kingdom of Sorrow. The whole bell-ringing thing? That was a Red Herring. The real reason he was called to Lunatea was to help Lolo who was dealing with her own self doubts and insecurities.

Lolo was a bumbling person who thought that she couldn't get what she wanted through her own power. So she tricked Klonoa into doing it for her -- a recurring theme among the people Klonoa is sent to help. Lolo's guilt over using Klonoa's power for her own benefit ate away at her until it finally came to a head in Mira Mira and she was forced to confront her fears and the reality of her situation.

Ultimately, the thing that makes Klonoa leave Lunatea is not the ringing of the fifth bell or the dead and rebirth of the King of Sorrow. Nope. It was Lolo admitting that she was not ready to become a priestess yet ... but would be one day if she worked hard enough. With his job accomplished the Dream Traveler leaves Lunatea and Lolo subsequently is an actual Priestess in all of her following appearances showing that her hard work has paid off.

Leorina's ambitions and path to power were meant to serve as a warning to Lolo. Leorina's flaw was not her ambition to power. Lolo wanted to be stronger, too. Instead, it was her lack of patience and willingness to take advantage of the power of others due to lack of confidence in her own.

The way I interpret the Dream Traveling thing is that whatever evil/big bad might be out there is just a reason for things to happen. Klonoa isn't here to save the world. He is here to save the particular person that he was sent into that Dream World to help. Saving their Dream World is secondary.

Offline Gamefreak202020

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2016, 08:19:01 AM »
The Way I Interpreted the Situation:

Klonoa was not called to Lunatea to help the King/Kingdom of Sorrow. The whole bell-ringing thing? That was a Red Herring. The real reason he was called to Lunatea was to help Lolo who was dealing with her own self doubts and insecurities.

Lolo was a bumbling person who thought that she couldn't get what she wanted through her own power. So she tricked Klonoa into doing it for her -- a recurring theme among the people Klonoa is sent to help. Lolo's guilt over using Klonoa's power for her own benefit ate away at her until it finally came to a head in Mira Mira and she was forced to confront her fears and the reality of her situation.

Ultimately, the thing that makes Klonoa leave Lunatea is not the ringing of the fifth bell or the dead and rebirth of the King of Sorrow. Nope. It was Lolo admitting that she was not ready to become a priestess yet ... but would be one day if she worked hard enough. With his job accomplished the Dream Traveler leaves Lunatea and Lolo subsequently is an actual Priestess in all of her following appearances showing that her hard work has paid off.

Leorina's ambitions and path to power were meant to serve as a warning to Lolo. Leorina's flaw was not her ambition to power. Lolo wanted to be stronger, too. Instead, it was her lack of patience and willingness to take advantage of the power of others due to lack of confidence in her own.

The way I interpret the Dream Traveling thing is that whatever evil/big bad might be out there is just a reason for things to happen. Klonoa isn't here to save the world. He is here to save the particular person that he was sent into that Dream World to help. Saving their Dream World is secondary.

That is a nice theory, but it does have some holes in it.

I could believe your theory with no questions if it was revealed that Lolo was the person who summomed him to Lunatea ala Huepow in Klonoa 1. However it was revealed that the actual person who summoned Klonoa to the world was KoS himself. Lolo just found him first and then proceeded to use him for her own purposes. (That and through Baguji he made sure that Lolo WAS the welcoming party)

KoS was using Lolo who was using Klonoa. Lolo can be seen as a Huepow, but only really through proxy. And even in Klonoa 1 when Huepow pointed out the very reason he was there was to deal with Ghadius, he still hanged around for a bit and the Powers that Be didn't suck Klonoa away as soon as he landed the final hit on Nahatomb. I also figured that was the case in Klonoa 2, difference being this time he knew how these things work and left before he was forced out. He was ready and was gonna leave at the ending regardless of what Lolo said to him at that point.

Offline Voka~Daemyn

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2016, 02:22:37 PM »
Oh boy theory time.

Be prepared very long. I've held theories and connections in my head for 2 years

Current tl:dr version I think the high priestess was misguided and held on to her beliefs too hard and KoS snapped and maybe also became consumed in other emotions besides just sorrow

Forgive me this is very long but I've had many random theories go through my head.

This is my own take it as opinion I'm also not the best at organizing my thoughts at times and my theories tend to change a little bit over time.

Imagine how that the high priestess was also subsequently taught by some former priestess or priest.
She was taught and founded probably her whole life and teachings on this. On how Ancient Claire sacrificed her self to save the world from the 5th bell of "Evil"

The kingdom of the element of tranquility for some reason has a for lack of better word religious system that denotes the kingdom and element of Sorrow as evil and dark I assume the king of sorrow him self educated him self as Baguji over time about the kingdom of tranquility's likely nowadays distorted teachings.

Another thing that strikes me is Ancient Claire and Current Claire Statues are not very similar and even more interesting are the unnamed statures in the empty sea of tears near a mass of bells. I theorize those as the first priestesses however they have unmistakable ears  ;) . I would also like to point out Ancient Claire's hands appear to be bound by a ring of some kind.
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

I think that at some point the whole Claire religion got distorted as I will call it now. Claire likely against her well got elevated to pretty much god like status in the world of Lunatea.

My evidence of corruption in the Claire religion as I view it stems from how Lolo got treated by other priestesses. It seems the others were quite full of them selves and didn't want anyone else joining their ranks probably not a very inclusive pompous lot of of priestesses at that. It might be why Leorina searched for spiritual power in another source which turned out to be the element of sorrow I believe. I'm betting his will infected her and fed on her own Sorrow. It is no surprise he manipulated her as well in order to try to bring back his forgotten kingdom.

I don't entirely buy that ancient claire's purging of "evil" is the whole story but merely the distorted teaching that Lolo learned from the Claire religion thing she is in.

I do believe what Leorina said near the end of the game about Sorrow farther isolating him self. His first boss form is what appears to be a manifest version of shelling self away retreating into isolation. That doesn't seem like a coincidence to me I'm pretty sure that was intentional.

Sorry this is getting huge haha. onwards!

The kingdom of tranquility of all the kingdoms is the one I think most rejected the kingdom of sorrow.
Sometimes people do dumb things to avoid their emotions and just have peace well it's not surprise a whole kingdom based on that concept would do the same. So. Sorrow was rejected and buried under a sea. Then likely sorrow probably tried to bury it's self farther as the more rejected and repressed said kingdom becomes it too likely distorted. Like how KoS goes nuts by the end of the game he's got lots more than just sorrow. There is bitterness and revenge there as well. Which can be a result of repressing certain emotions that congeal and transform.

Hmm. Now about those other kingdoms. Well Joilant went off to play mindlessly and not give a damn about anything.
Volk got angry and started blowing it's self up in a fit of violent anger
Mira Mira secluded it's self never really decided what it felt or wanted.
LaLakoosha In my opinion kept away from everything else to have peace but however became obsessed with it's own "order" and teachings
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In the end I think sorrow did the best he could to try to bring back the natural balance to Lunatea however due to the excessive imbalance and outright labeling of sorrow as evil/dark and rejection from the other kingdoms he became desperate and very confused also completely lost in all that congealing sorrow that likely accumulated in that kingdom.

So instead we have crazy KoS who has obviously started to hate everything wanting to consume the world in sorrow.
It seems to go by the concept of creating excessive imbalance causes likely excessive forces that are trying to return to a natural state which in this case applies to an entire world known as Lunatea.

I could probably go on forever trying to theorize this. I've already spent a literal hour typing this out.

Now for things I have yet to answer for my self because it's all fuzzy in exact conclusions of left at best only 60% or so certain to me.

Why Ancient Claire purged her self of "Evil" and what exactly did she actually purge her self of? Also the statues in the empty sea of tears also having Klonoa like ears. Why is that?

I wonder if Klonoa is related too or a descendant of the original Claire. he could also be a reincarnation or incarnation of Claire however none of this is concrete and does not entirely add up in apperances for me just some words Popka said at the end of the game.

The King of Sorrow looks more similarly to those statues in the empty sea of tears who are they?

High Priestess looks tired and literally gives a sigh when she grants Lolo the title or priestess early on in the game. Why did the high priestess give lolo the title even when being pretty sure it was not by her own spiritual power alone.

How the hell do all of them know about the dream traveler which by the way in Japanese is more akin to dark dream traveler or maybe just black dream traveler.
In what legends of Lunatea is the wind ring taught about? Because Leorina definitely knew what it was before she even saw Klonoa.

What in the world is Tat aside from Leorina's possible familiar. She is a being that can split into two selves with differing personalities it seems?

Klonoa saw something in that Mirror in the maze of memories before Lolo did. I want to know what he saw.

Assuming Leorina is also partly possessed by the King of Sorrow is it not interesting that when the four elements are gathered together that a certain LaLaKoosha part of the world reveals it's true poisonous nature or is it simply that the king of sorrow hated that place the most since he had to endure that kingdom constantly rejecting and telling him how his own home was evil and dark and not part of the world?

Ok I'm stopping here for now it's been an hour and 21 mins.
I'm sorry this is so long it's just I get a little passionate on certain things hahaha. This is also why I normally refuse to tell my theories on skype or discord or just try to shorten them.

Offline Gamefreak202020

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2016, 05:27:25 PM »
Quote from: Vokadae
Theory

Interesting theory, but when Popka mentioned Claire the Ancient when at the current stature, he says that was all that was left of her after 'SHE was purged of all evil', not that she purged the world's evil. The Kingdom of Sorrow being under the ocean probably was self-inflicted, not that I don't think they thought the Fifth Bell was evil to start out with, they didn't even know or realize the Fifth Bell existed until Baguji/KoS told them about it and identified it as evil. Then again, maybe they did and they just forgot about it over time.

Offline Voka~Daemyn

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2016, 08:09:58 PM »
Well I wasn't referring to the world's evil but of her evil in general I should have been more specific on that.

Thankfully I don't have much else floating about my mind. yet.

Offline Mobotropolis

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Re: The Final Boss is a complete idiot (MASSIVE SPOILERS)
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2016, 11:08:22 PM »
Quote
That is a nice theory, but it does have some holes in it.

The King of Sorrow did not summon Klonoa. He just believes that he did. In reality, those that are in the dreamer's Dream World have about as much control over the Dream Traveler as the Dream Traveler has over himself -- which is none. Some unseen force is actually calling the shots. When Klonoa goes to sleep in the Waking World he does to the Dream World of the person who needs him the most that night.

Then -- the rules get kind of fuzzy and explaining them would spoil the story I'm working on. Let's just say that the rules and the laws of the universe work differently in the Dream Worlds. Because of that Klonoa can be " dreaming " for ten years but only one night passes in the Waking World.

Each game in the series takes place in a particular Dreamers' Dream World. They are all connected in the sense that all of these characters, locations, and many of the concepts exist in the Waking World. Yet they all take place in their own sense of continuity. The world that Lunatea's Veil takes place in is Lolo's Dream World. It is an alternate version of the seldom seen Waking World created by a dreamer based on their views and ideologies.

It cannot be the King of Sorrow's Dream World because, well, I am not entirely convinced that the King of Sorrow is actually a thing that physically exists in the Waking World. The King of Sorrow is a manifestation of negative dream energy created by Lolo's insecurities. Lolo refused to confront her own feelings of sadness and frustration over her inability to become a priestess under her own power. The guilt and shame ate away at her and created a monster.

Quote
he still hanged around for a bit and the Powers that Be didn't suck Klonoa away as soon as he landed the final hit on Nahatomb.

The Powers that Be aren't interested in Klonoa's ability to defeat monsters (Ghadius, Natabomb, The King of Sorrow, ect.). Not only is that irrelevant, but that is not the reason that The Dream Traveler appears in the world of dreamers.

The type of experience a person in the Waking World has when they sleep, a Dream or a Nightmare, depends on how they are feeling and what lies in their subconscious. When negative feelings (sorrow, anger, indecision, ect.) grow  they manifest into monsters that terrorize the dreamer. Most of these are practically harmless like the fodder-Moo. Others are sentient and intelligent and can really cause damage to the psyche if left unchecked.

Enter the Dream Traveler who's job is not to simply beat back the monsters. Beating them back does nothing. Like the fodder-Moo that appear in the various levels of the Klonoa-verse monsters do not simply die when they are beaten back. They come again and again so long as those negative feelings linger. It is the Dream Traveler's job to get to the root of the problem. To find the dreamer and help them overcome whatever anxiety they may have so the monsters stop manifesting in their dreams. This usually involves the dreamer going through some level of personal growth.

Klonoa doesn't leave when the Big Bad is defeated. His connection to the dreamer's Dream World is severed when the Powers That Be feel that the dreamer no longer need his protection. Neither Klonoa nor the dreamer actually have control over that, but Klonoa can " feel " when he is about to be pulled from a world. It is an odd feeling ... like waking up from a dream (since, well, he is).